[Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

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[Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay

Hi Jenkins users,


Today I am happy to announce the open sourcing of a new user experience for Jenkins called Blue Ocean.


We are looking to build an excellent experience around Pipeline and Freestyle jobs with a focus on developer experience - how you as a developer build better automation, easily diagnose failures, integrate with tools like Github, Bitbucket or Slack and onboard new team members. These are goals of the uttermost importance to this project.


We realise that we can’t do this alone and it will take more than just Jenkins developers to make this effort successful. We need to hear from the Jenkins user community about their thoughts on the project, where it is heading and how we can help you hone your craft and build better software using Jenkins.


Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


If you have any questions or comments please reply to this post and I’ll be more than happy to answer any questions you may have :)


Thanks,

James

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Antwort: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Lars.Meynberg
Seems to be cool stuff. I tried to install the plugin on our Jenkins as where switching to pipeline building at the moment but couldnt find the plugin in the update center.
But the readme of the describes it more as a standalone installation:
Running Blue Ocean
$ cd blueocean-plugin
$ mvn hpi:run
Then open http://localhost:8080/jenkins/blue to start using Blue Ocean.



Von:        James Dumay <[hidden email]>
An:        Jenkins Users <[hidden email]>,
Datum:        27.05.2016 00:22
Betreff:        [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins
Gesendet von:        [hidden email]




Hi Jenkins users,


Today I am happy to announce the open sourcing of a new user experience for Jenkins called Blue Ocean.


We are looking to build an excellent experience around Pipeline and Freestyle jobs with a focus on developer experience - how you as a developer build better automation, easily diagnose failures, integrate with tools like Github, Bitbucket or Slack and onboard new team members. These are goals of the uttermost importance to this project.


We realise that we can’t do this alone and it will take more than just Jenkins developers to make this effort successful. We need to hear from the Jenkins user community about their thoughts on the project, where it is heading and how we can help you hone your craft and build better software using Jenkins.


Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


If you have any questions or comments please reply to this post and I’ll be more than happy to answer any questions you may have :)


Thanks,

James

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Dirk Heinrichs
In reply to this post by James Dumay
Am 27.05.2016 um 00:21 schrieb James Dumay:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail.

Unfortunately, the blog post is not completely readable, because the schedule on the right side overlapps the text.

Bye...

    Dirk
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Recommind GmbH, Von-Liebig-Straße 1, 53359 Rheinbach
Tel: +49 2226 1596666 (Ansage) 1149
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: dirk.heinrichs.recommind
www.recommind.com

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

nicolas de loof-2
source code actually has been moved to https://github.com/jenkinsci/blueocean

2016-05-27 8:16 GMT+02:00 Dirk Heinrichs <[hidden email]>:
Am 27.05.2016 um 00:21 schrieb James Dumay:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail.

Unfortunately, the blog post is not completely readable, because the schedule on the right side overlapps the text.

Bye...

    Dirk
--

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Recommind GmbH, Von-Liebig-Straße 1, 53359 Rheinbach
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B49%202226%201596666" value="+4922261596666" target="_blank">+49 2226 1596666 (Ansage) 1149
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: dirk.heinrichs.recommind
www.recommind.com

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay
Fixing the website right now. Sorry about that :(

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:19 PM nicolas de loof <[hidden email]> wrote:
source code actually has been moved to https://github.com/jenkinsci/blueocean

2016-05-27 8:16 GMT+02:00 Dirk Heinrichs <[hidden email]>:
Am 27.05.2016 um 00:21 schrieb James Dumay:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail.

Unfortunately, the blog post is not completely readable, because the schedule on the right side overlapps the text.

Bye...

    Dirk
--

Dirk Heinrichs, Senior Systems Engineer, Engineering Solutions
Recommind GmbH, Von-Liebig-Straße 1, 53359 Rheinbach
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B49%202226%201596666" value="+4922261596666" target="_blank">+49 2226 1596666 (Ansage) 1149
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: dirk.heinrichs.recommind
www.recommind.com

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Craig Rodrigues
In reply to this post by James Dumay
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig



On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Dumay <[hidden email]> wrote:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay
In reply to this post by James Dumay
Tyler was nice enough to get out of bed to deploy the change to jenkins.io - should now be readable on any device.

I owe Tyler a case of beer now...

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:49 PM James Dumay <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fixing the website right now. Sorry about that :(

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:19 PM nicolas de loof <[hidden email]> wrote:
source code actually has been moved to https://github.com/jenkinsci/blueocean

2016-05-27 8:16 GMT+02:00 Dirk Heinrichs <[hidden email]>:
Am 27.05.2016 um 00:21 schrieb James Dumay:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail.

Unfortunately, the blog post is not completely readable, because the schedule on the right side overlapps the text.

Bye...

    Dirk
--

Dirk Heinrichs, Senior Systems Engineer, Engineering Solutions
Recommind GmbH, Von-Liebig-Straße 1, 53359 Rheinbach
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B49%202226%201596666" value="+4922261596666" target="_blank">+49 2226 1596666 (Ansage) 1149
Email: [hidden email]
Skype: dirk.heinrichs.recommind
www.recommind.com

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Tom Fennelly
In reply to this post by Craig Rodrigues
On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:59:41 AM UTC+1, Craig Rodrigues wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig

Hi Craig.

I hear what you are saying. I think your comments are fair and are things that we need to address.

I think you'll agree that the lower level details relating to how specific plugins work (durable task etc) is a "general" Jenkins/pipeline problem that needs to be addressed i.e. is not really specific to the Blue Ocean (BO) project.

As for the usability issues wrt actually "using" Jenkins pipeline (creating flow/execution scripts etc), they are most definitely issues that are very relevant to the BO project. Some prototyping work was done in this area a while back (and maybe there are other efforts too) and it seems natural that the plan would be to pick one of these up again in some form and build it into BO, making pipeline "author" more of a visual (drag & drop .. fill out a form) kind of process.

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay
Ill prepare a post for the mailing list tomorrow showing off some of our ideas for a visual editor - we want to make it just as easy to use Pipeline jobs as it is to use FreeStyle today. I agree, things are not where they are at but we are working hard on it. Ill ask someone to share some ideas that we have around making Pipeline easier to author and understand when in a Jenkinsfile too.

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:45:10 PM UTC+10, Tom Fennelly wrote:
On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:59:41 AM UTC+1, Craig Rodrigues wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig

Hi Craig.

I hear what you are saying. I think your comments are fair and are things that we need to address.

I think you'll agree that the lower level details relating to how specific plugins work (durable task etc) is a "general" Jenkins/pipeline problem that needs to be addressed i.e. is not really specific to the Blue Ocean (BO) project.

As for the usability issues wrt actually "using" Jenkins pipeline (creating flow/execution scripts etc), they are most definitely issues that are very relevant to the BO project. <a href="https://github.com/jenkinsci/pipeline-editor-plugin" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fjenkinsci%2Fpipeline-editor-plugin\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxtme_JJaxE3QL_zKsQCymIYPskg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fjenkinsci%2Fpipeline-editor-plugin\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxtme_JJaxE3QL_zKsQCymIYPskg&#39;;return true;">Some prototyping work was done in this area a while back (and maybe there are other efforts too) and it seems natural that the plan would be to pick one of these up again in some form and build it into BO, making pipeline "author" more of a visual (drag & drop .. fill out a form) kind of process.

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Michael Neale-2
In reply to this post by Craig Rodrigues
Hi Craig - well for pipeline specifically, if you jump on the dev list andrew is trying to flag down some interest in a declarative script: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/jenkinsci-dev/Vsvq6UkIRAQ which should be easy for most. 

As for a form based thing, I expect that to be around in any new world (freestyle or simplified pipeline, same result, type in a script). 

If you have any thought on the plumber thing (which keeps people away from being groovy experts) please lets talk on the dev list. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:59:41 PM UTC+10, Craig Rodrigues wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig



On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Dumay <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="yG8Kg7x_BAAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">jdu...@...> wrote:

Today we’ve made the <a href="https://github.com/cloudbees/blueocean" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcloudbees%2Fblueocean\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHrugD1B0EuCuik8CKMFTvlZyTzDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcloudbees%2Fblueocean\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHrugD1B0EuCuik8CKMFTvlZyTzDA&#39;;return true;">source code available on Github, written a <a href="https://jenkins.io/blog/2016/05/26/introducing-blue-ocean/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io%2Fblog%2F2016%2F05%2F26%2Fintroducing-blue-ocean%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNECddRra41SDg5kGHN5apz6sMfY7A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io%2Fblog%2F2016%2F05%2F26%2Fintroducing-blue-ocean%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNECddRra41SDg5kGHN5apz6sMfY7A&#39;;return true;">blog post and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dITffteCD4" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v\x3d3dITffteCD4&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v\x3d3dITffteCD4&#39;;return true;">created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Dirk Heinrichs
In reply to this post by James Dumay
Am 27.05.2016 um 09:44 schrieb James Dumay:

Tyler was nice enough to get out of bed to deploy the change to jenkins.io - should now be readable on any device.

Yes, looks much better now. Thanks a lot for having it fixed so fast!!!

Bye...

    Dirk
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Antwort: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Lars.Meynberg
In reply to this post by James Dumay
As the old world will disappear the easy way to create build jobs is still available for the non-experts, but for me the new world of pipeline-as-code, its great because now we can handle the jenkins logic the same well as the rest as our code.
Yes pipeline scripts are code but thats fine because we're developers.

So for me the merge of old and new world is great for all.



Von:        James Dumay <[hidden email]>
An:        Jenkins Users <[hidden email]>,
Kopie:        [hidden email]
Datum:        27.05.2016 09:49
Betreff:        Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins
Gesendet von:        [hidden email]




Ill prepare a post for the mailing list tomorrow showing off some of our ideas for a visual editor - we want to make it just as easy to use Pipeline jobs as it is to use FreeStyle today. I agree, things are not where they are at but we are working hard on it. Ill ask someone to share some ideas that we have around making Pipeline easier to author and understand when in a Jenkinsfile too.

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:45:10 PM UTC+10, Tom Fennelly wrote:

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:59:41 AM UTC+1, Craig Rodrigues wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--

Craig

Hi Craig.

I hear what you are saying. I think your comments are fair and are things that we need to address.

I think you'll agree that the lower level details relating to how specific plugins work (durable task etc) is a "general" Jenkins/pipeline problem that needs to be addressed i.e. is not really specific to the Blue Ocean (BO) project.

As for the usability issues wrt actually "using" Jenkins pipeline (creating flow/execution scripts etc), they are most definitely issues that are very relevant to the BO project. Some prototyping work was done in this area a while back (and maybe there are other efforts too) and it seems natural that the plan would be to pick one of these up again in some form and build it into BO, making pipeline "author" more of a visual (drag & drop .. fill out a form) kind of process.

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Re: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Michael Neale-2
Well I hope the old doesn't go away! I don't think that is the intention. Pipeline-as-code is just a tidy starting point. There are a lot of freestyle jobs that people get a lot of value out of, and will for a long time. That non code type of working needs to be supported too, as you say - a merge of things. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:54:46 PM UTC+10, [hidden email] wrote:
As the old world will disappear the easy way to create build jobs is still available for the non-experts, but for me the new world of pipeline-as-code, its great because now we can handle the jenkins logic the same well as the rest as our code.
Yes pipeline scripts are code but thats fine because we're developers.

So for me the merge of old and new world is great for all.








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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay
In reply to this post by Dirk Heinrichs
My pleasure :)

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:53:51 PM UTC+10, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
Am 27.05.2016 um 09:44 schrieb James Dumay:

Tyler was nice enough to get out of bed to deploy the change to <a href="http://jenkins.io" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxN3TNcVz4ABxnDGK3ixwttT1E1A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxN3TNcVz4ABxnDGK3ixwttT1E1A&#39;;return true;">jenkins.io - should now be readable on any device.

Yes, looks much better now. Thanks a lot for having it fixed so fast!!!

Bye...

    Dirk
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Antwort: Re: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Lars.Meynberg
In reply to this post by Michael Neale-2
Sorry I meant will NOT disappear



Von:        Michael Neale <[hidden email]>
An:        Jenkins Users <[hidden email]>,
Kopie:        [hidden email]
Datum:        27.05.2016 10:02
Betreff:        Re: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins
Gesendet von:        [hidden email]




Well I hope the old doesn't go away! I don't think that is the intention. Pipeline-as-code is just a tidy starting point. There are a lot of freestyle jobs that people get a lot of value out of, and will for a long time. That non code type of working needs to be supported too, as you say - a merge of things. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:54:46 PM UTC+10, [hidden email] wrote:

As the old world will disappear the easy way to create build jobs is still available for the non-experts, but for me the new world of pipeline-as-code, its great because now we can handle the jenkins logic the same well as the rest as our code.
Yes pipeline scripts are code but thats fine because we're developers.

So for me the merge of old and new world is great for all.







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Re: Re: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

James Dumay
Don't worry - nothing will disappear :)

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 6:25 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry I meant will NOT disappear



Von:        Michael Neale <[hidden email]>
An:        Jenkins Users <[hidden email]>,
Kopie:        [hidden email]
Datum:        27.05.2016 10:02
Betreff:        Re: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins
Gesendet von:        [hidden email]




Well I hope the old doesn't go away! I don't think that is the intention. Pipeline-as-code is just a tidy starting point. There are a lot of freestyle jobs that people get a lot of value out of, and will for a long time. That non code type of working needs to be supported too, as you say - a merge of things. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 5:54:46 PM UTC+10, [hidden email] wrote:

As the old world will disappear the easy way to create build jobs is still available for the non-experts, but for me the new world of pipeline-as-code, its great because now we can handle the jenkins logic the same well as the rest as our code.
Yes pipeline scripts are code but thats fine because we're developers.

So for me the merge of old and new world is great for all.







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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

stephenconnolly
In reply to this post by Craig Rodrigues


On 27 May 2016 at 07:59, Craig Rodrigues <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
So in my personal opinion, this is a sign of People Doing Things Wrong™

By this I mean that your Jenkinsfile should *not* be doing complex things. You should have shell scripts or equivalent to do the complex functionality. That lets you test each individual step in the phase on local developer machines. Then your pipeline should end up mostly being

node {
  try {
    sh "..."
    stash ...
  } catch (...) {
    sh "..."
  } finally {
    sh "..."
  }
}
input "..."
node {
  unstash
  sh "..."
}
 
Ok you may have to chain parameters between steps, etc. but what I see people doing instead is building up a whole big set of logic in the Jenkinsfile.

Now there is nothing "wrong" in building up that login in your Jenkinsfile... but in my view it is Wrong™ because:
  • You now can only test this logic by running Jenkins builds.
  • You cannot unit test this logic, you can only run manual acceptance tests on the whole script
  • You will need to battle with the script approval process if security of your instance is important to you
  • You have tied yourself to Jenkins (which initially seems tempting for Jenkins, but people who feel tied to a system are then not free to explore other options and probably are more correctly tied to a "specific way of doing things", so they cannot even explore alternatives *within Jenkins*... then when they finally get fed-up they blame Jenkins rather than their choices in how to use Jenkins... so it ends up being a loss of Jenkins when people tie themselves to "their way of using Jenkins")
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
Documentation will improve. 
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
I hear you. It is a trade-off but being restartable is too much of a killer feature, so I view it as worth the pain of some initial bugs. 
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I hear you and feel your pain too.
 
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig



On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Dumay <[hidden email]> wrote:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

stephenconnolly


On 27 May 2016 at 11:12, Stephen Connolly <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 27 May 2016 at 07:59, Craig Rodrigues <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.
So in my personal opinion, this is a sign of People Doing Things Wrong™

By this I mean that your Jenkinsfile should *not* be doing complex things. You should have shell scripts or equivalent to do the complex functionality. That lets you test each individual step in the phase on local developer machines. Then your pipeline should end up mostly being

node {
  try {
    sh "..."
    stash ...
  } catch (...) {
    sh "..."
  } finally {
    sh "..."
  }
}
input "..."
node {
  unstash
  sh "..."
}
 
Ok you may have to chain parameters between steps, etc. but what I see people doing instead is building up a whole big set of logic in the Jenkinsfile.

Now there is nothing "wrong" in building up that login in your Jenkinsfile... but in my view it is Wrong™ because:
  • You now can only test this logic by running Jenkins builds.
  • You cannot unit test this logic, you can only run manual acceptance tests on the whole script
  • You will need to battle with the script approval process if security of your instance is important to you
  • You have tied yourself to Jenkins (which initially seems tempting for Jenkins, but people who feel tied to a system are then not free to explore other options and probably are more correctly tied to a "specific way of doing things", so they cannot even explore alternatives *within Jenkins*... then when they finally get fed-up they blame Jenkins rather than their choices in how to use Jenkins... so it ends up being a loss of Jenkins when people tie themselves to "their way of using Jenkins")
For what it is worth, this last point is not just a problem for Jenkins, we have the same issue with Maven.

Do you not like Maven? Perhaps what you really don't like is that the people who wrote your pom.xml chose to make it a 10,000+ line epic rather than encapsulate the logic into custom plugins and a custom lifecycle.

If you are Doing Maven The Right Way™ then your pom.xml should be

<project>
  <modelVersion>4.0.0</modelVersion>
  <!-- optional -->
  <parent>
    ...
  </parent>
  <!-- /optional -->
  <groupId>...</groupId>
  <artifactId>...</artifactId>
  <version>...</version>
  <packaging>custom-packaging</packaging>

  <dependencies>
    ... insert dependencies here ...
  </dependencies>

  <build>
    <plugins>
      <plugin>
        <groupId>...</groupId>
        <artifactId>custom-plugin</artifactId>
        <version>...</version>
        <extensions>true</extensions>
      </plugin>
    </plugins>
  </build>
</project>

If you have anything more that the above then you have chosen to fight Maven. When you fight Maven, Maven always wins the war... which means you loose

Other build systems (i'm looking at you gradle) make it easy to embed small bits of custom logic and stave off having to stop for a second and think about that custom logic and then embed that logic into a Maven plugin... now that is indeed tempting for the once off project... but every time you release a new version of that project, those are repeated builds. If the process is really a once-off, just capture the output and check it into source control ;-) 

It is much better to slow down for a couple of minutes and encapsulate that logic into a custom plugin that can make reuse easier.

(Note I will agree with anyone who complains that writing Maven plugins is not as easy as it should be... but that is a different story that results from most people refusing to even try)   
  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.
Documentation will improve. 
  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)
I hear you. It is a trade-off but being restartable is too much of a killer feature, so I view it as worth the pain of some initial bugs. 
  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.
I hear you and feel your pain too.
 
I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.
However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.
The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,
but make things harder to figure out what is going on.

--
Craig



On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Dumay <[hidden email]> wrote:

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.


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RE: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Ginga, Dick

For the record, I have occasionally replied to threads with the same concern below: pipeline jobs require Groovy programming experience. I would much rather see a robust set of gadgets and widgets to choose from. Perhaps some build/release teams are composed of programmers. I am an experienced programmer in several languages, just not Groovy. But most teams are scripters: batch and shell.

 

Still, the fastest way to CI is picking and choosing standard known build and post build steps. Then maybe proceeding into Groovy for specific, local, requirements,

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stephen Connolly
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 6:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

 

 

 

On 27 May 2016 at 11:12, Stephen Connolly <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

On 27 May 2016 at 07:59, Craig Rodrigues <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,

someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.

I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:

  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.

So in my personal opinion, this is a sign of People Doing Things Wrong™

 

By this I mean that your Jenkinsfile should *not* be doing complex things. You should have shell scripts or equivalent to do the complex functionality. That lets you test each individual step in the phase on local developer machines. Then your pipeline should end up mostly being

 

node {

  try {

    sh "..."

    stash ...

  } catch (...) {

    sh "..."

  } finally {

    sh "..."

  }

}

input "..."

node {

  unstash

  sh "..."

}

 

Ok you may have to chain parameters between steps, etc. but what I see people doing instead is building up a whole big set of logic in the Jenkinsfile.

 

Now there is nothing "wrong" in building up that login in your Jenkinsfile... but in my view it is Wrong™ because:

  • You now can only test this logic by running Jenkins builds.
  • You cannot unit test this logic, you can only run manual acceptance tests on the whole script
  • You will need to battle with the script approval process if security of your instance is important to you
  • You have tied yourself to Jenkins (which initially seems tempting for Jenkins, but people who feel tied to a system are then not free to explore other options and probably are more correctly tied to a "specific way of doing things", so they cannot even explore alternatives *within Jenkins*... then when they finally get fed-up they blame Jenkins rather than their choices in how to use Jenkins... so it ends up being a loss of Jenkins when people tie themselves to "their way of using Jenkins")

For what it is worth, this last point is not just a problem for Jenkins, we have the same issue with Maven.

 

Do you not like Maven? Perhaps what you really don't like is that the people who wrote your pom.xml chose to make it a 10,000+ line epic rather than encapsulate the logic into custom plugins and a custom lifecycle.

 

If you are Doing Maven The Right Way™ then your pom.xml should be

 

<project>

  <modelVersion>4.0.0</modelVersion>

  <!-- optional -->

  <parent>

    ...

  </parent>

  <!-- /optional -->

  <groupId>...</groupId>

  <artifactId>...</artifactId>

  <version>...</version>

  <packaging>custom-packaging</packaging>

 

  <dependencies>

    ... insert dependencies here ...

  </dependencies>

 

  <build>

    <plugins>

      <plugin>

        <groupId>...</groupId>

        <artifactId>custom-plugin</artifactId>

        <version>...</version>

        <extensions>true</extensions>

      </plugin>

    </plugins>

  </build>

</project>

 

If you have anything more that the above then you have chosen to fight Maven. When you fight Maven, Maven always wins the war... which means you loose

 

Other build systems (i'm looking at you gradle) make it easy to embed small bits of custom logic and stave off having to stop for a second and think about that custom logic and then embed that logic into a Maven plugin... now that is indeed tempting for the once off project... but every time you release a new version of that project, those are repeated builds. If the process is really a once-off, just capture the output and check it into source control ;-) 

 

It is much better to slow down for a couple of minutes and encapsulate that logic into a custom plugin that can make reuse easier.

 

(Note I will agree with anyone who complains that writing Maven plugins is not as easy as it should be... but that is a different story that results from most people refusing to even try)   

  • Documentation for Pipeline scripts isn't that great (although it has definitely been improving).  In all honesty, I cannot point a junior scripting person to write a good Pipeline script for developing a build Pipeline.

Documentation will improve. 

  • The durable task plugin which invokes shell commands on Unix, and batch jobs on Windows goes through an elaborate method for invoking shell commands.  It is very, very difficult to grab the exit status of commands, stderr, stdout, etc.  For a while, these wrappers would do things like not detect when a command had terminated, etc. (Looks like this has been fixed now)

I hear you. It is a trade-off but being restartable is too much of a killer feature, so I view it as worth the pain of some initial bugs. 

  • It is very hard to figure out how to cancel a running Pipeline job.  The UI link to "Click here to cancel" a Pipeline job is hidden in the build output, and often doesn't work.

I hear you and feel your pain too.

 

I understand that Jenkins is going through a big transition period.  Hopefully at the end of the road, things will be much better.

However, at this point in time, I would say that in many ways, the current direction is worse than the old way of doing things with the old Jenkins UI.

The old way has problems, but it was easy to figure out, and didn't have a lot of these intermediate layers that try to abstract things out,

but make things harder to figure out what is going on.


--

Craig

 

 

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Dumay <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Today we’ve made the source code available on Github, written a blog post and created a video explaining the project in more detail. We will be posting more updates to both the blog and mailing lists when there are more updates to share.

 

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

 

 

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Re: [Blue Ocean] A new user experience project for Jenkins

Maciej Jaros
In reply to this post by Craig Rodrigues
Craig Rodrigues (2016-05-27 08:59):
Hi,

The new Jenkins UI looks nice, and will be a big improvement over the existing UI.

The original selling point of Jenkins was that even with the simplistic forms-based UI,
someone could fill out a relatively simple form, and have a continuous integration pipeline.
I have met people who were general devops and scripting people, and could use Jenkins quite nicely.

While I understand the motivation for Pipeline (previously known as Workflow), I can't say I'm very happy with the results.

Here are some of the pain points I've encountered with Pipeline scripts:
  • Other than the most trivial of scripts, you need to be a knowledgable Groovy programmer.  For example, to make a global variable, you need to use a @Field.  (What?!)  Most scripting and devops people that I know don't really know Groovy.

    [...]

Groovy is not my thing either. The syntax is not very hard, but using it with Jenkins is just trail and error. There are some changes from version to version and no central place to learn from.

I think this would be solved by providing recepies that would be updated for each Jenkins version. Some recepies ideas:
  1. How to read a build parameter and conditionally run some shell script.
  2. How to trigger build of another project.
  3. How to trigger build of another project with some static parameters of various types.
  4. How to trigger build of another project passing all parameters from current job/build.
  5. How to copy artifacts from another project.
  6. How to send files over SSH.
  7. How to execute scripts over SSH.

Regards,
Nux.

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