Support List on jenkins.io?

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Support List on jenkins.io?

Gavin Mogan
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Mark Waite-2
I like the idea very much.

We could create a page and allow changes to the page through pull requests.  If an organization wants to note that it provides commercial support for Jenkins, they do it by pull request.

I don't think we should put too much overhead on organizations that want to add themselves to the page (or collection of pages).  As an example, I could imagine a DevOps consultancy submitting a pull request with their contact information.  Possibly, a page template with a catalog page that lists all the pages using that template.  When an organization wants to state their willingness to provide commercial support, they add a page that describes the service they offer.

The wiki has https://wiki.jenkins.io/display/JENKINS/Commercial+Support .  Wiki is read only now, so we need a place on jenkins.io for that type of information.

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 9:32 PM 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Thanks!
Mark Waite

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Marky Jackson
In reply to this post by Gavin Mogan

Gavin, 

I certainly empathize with what you are saying about that and agree on a need for a better way to help.

I am not sure a good option is available. 

Adding support like reference runs the risk of a conflict with how that list is curated, as you mentioned. It also semi takes the open-source ethos away, in my opinion. That still does not mean we are a help desk. 

I also think we need a code of conduct that lays out some cadence on what gitter is and is not.

I think this is a good topic for the advocacy meeting taking place on February 13th, and I will add it to the agenda.

In the meantime, I would like you to know how much I appreciate you and the other volunteers who provide help day in and day out.


On Jan 22, 2020, at 8:32 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Richard Bywater-3
In reply to this post by Gavin Mogan
This seems to be along the lines of what Oleg raised mid-last year ( https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jenkinsci-dev/-1cDktjaI6A/FRT21zTqDQAJ ). 

I think that there does need to be a very clear steer that the project itself runs on a voluntary basis and perhaps have a list of commercial support available but I think rather than having the list as curated as such it should be done in a way that commercial companies can list their details (and, as I said in the previous email, make sure that its clearly said that the Jenkins project doesn't endorse any of them).

I'm guessing it should be fairly simple to create a page on jenkins.io and have companies provide PRs to have their company included (and, at that point, whomever approves the PR needs a bit of guidance about what information should/shouldn't be allowed to be provided by the company).

Richard.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 17:32, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Gavin Mogan
Yea I don't think we'd want to curate it, but allow it to be PRs to manage. Like the awesome lists.

> The wiki has https://wiki.jenkins.io/display/JENKINS/Commercial+Support .  Wiki is read only now, so we need a place on jenkins.io for that type of information.

Yea that would be what I was thinking. Just a list, no promises.

I really love the powerdns model though its a little extreme

> Users of PowerDNS open-source software can ask questions on our public mailing lists, where operators must supply full details of their problem, including actual IP addresses and real domain names that are relevant to the problem.

We've had a number of people post pipelines with missing brackets, or different variable names. We point out that the problem is there, they mention its a snippet. So error message line numbers don't line up, etc.

But yea, +1 for the discussion, I just want to highlight it as an issue.


On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 9:06 PM Richard Bywater <[hidden email]> wrote:
This seems to be along the lines of what Oleg raised mid-last year ( https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jenkinsci-dev/-1cDktjaI6A/FRT21zTqDQAJ ). 

I think that there does need to be a very clear steer that the project itself runs on a voluntary basis and perhaps have a list of commercial support available but I think rather than having the list as curated as such it should be done in a way that commercial companies can list their details (and, as I said in the previous email, make sure that its clearly said that the Jenkins project doesn't endorse any of them).

I'm guessing it should be fairly simple to create a page on jenkins.io and have companies provide PRs to have their company included (and, at that point, whomever approves the PR needs a bit of guidance about what information should/shouldn't be allowed to be provided by the company).

Richard.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 17:32, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Marky Jackson
In reply to this post by Richard Bywater-3
I like the idea of pr’s. Are you also saying that the list is available for any company to pr? 
I also think with the move to the CDF it will operate much like the CNCF and have certified service providers.
I would be good with a list where every company can pr but how does a company fleet validated. I see room for companies or supposed companies to abuse the process and ultimately the project.

On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:06 PM, Richard Bywater <[hidden email]> wrote:


This seems to be along the lines of what Oleg raised mid-last year ( https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jenkinsci-dev/-1cDktjaI6A/FRT21zTqDQAJ ). 

I think that there does need to be a very clear steer that the project itself runs on a voluntary basis and perhaps have a list of commercial support available but I think rather than having the list as curated as such it should be done in a way that commercial companies can list their details (and, as I said in the previous email, make sure that its clearly said that the Jenkins project doesn't endorse any of them).

I'm guessing it should be fairly simple to create a page on jenkins.io and have companies provide PRs to have their company included (and, at that point, whomever approves the PR needs a bit of guidance about what information should/shouldn't be allowed to be provided by the company).

Richard.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 17:32, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Gavin Mogan
> I like the idea of pr’s. Are you also saying that the list is available for any company to pr? 

Yep, Literally "community managed list of commercial support", just like the wiki

> I would be good with a list where every company can pr but how does a company fleet validated. I see room for companies or supposed companies to abuse the process and ultimately the project.

as someone (i think mark) has been saying on gitter. We have a super open trust model. I really like that. if it does get abused, its worth re-visiting, but for now I think its worth doing

But it can absolutely wait for the advocacy meeting

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 9:18 PM Marky Jackson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like the idea of pr’s. Are you also saying that the list is available for any company to pr? 
I also think with the move to the CDF it will operate much like the CNCF and have certified service providers.
I would be good with a list where every company can pr but how does a company fleet validated. I see room for companies or supposed companies to abuse the process and ultimately the project.

On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:06 PM, Richard Bywater <[hidden email]> wrote:


This seems to be along the lines of what Oleg raised mid-last year ( https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jenkinsci-dev/-1cDktjaI6A/FRT21zTqDQAJ ). 

I think that there does need to be a very clear steer that the project itself runs on a voluntary basis and perhaps have a list of commercial support available but I think rather than having the list as curated as such it should be done in a way that commercial companies can list their details (and, as I said in the previous email, make sure that its clearly said that the Jenkins project doesn't endorse any of them).

I'm guessing it should be fairly simple to create a page on jenkins.io and have companies provide PRs to have their company included (and, at that point, whomever approves the PR needs a bit of guidance about what information should/shouldn't be allowed to be provided by the company).

Richard.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 17:32, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,

As one of the few that regularly hang out in the users channels (#jenkins on irc, or #jenkinsci/jenkins on gitter) I was wondering how everyone felt about a central location where we can point users to for commercial support.

There's definitely some users who come in, ask straight forward questions, and usually pretty easy to fix ("check what version of java", "your using the wrong type of pipeline, see examples", etc) but sometimes there's definitely issues that last weeks, and its fundamental understanding of what needs to be done ("How do I CI?", "Whats wrong with this <paste 6 pages of stacktrace and no pipeline", etc)

So how does everyone feel of a page on jenkins.io where we can go:
"Looking for more support than the volunteers can offer? Looking to share sensitive info? Need help in a short amount of time? Feel free to contact any of these professional services"

I'm certainly conflicted at maintaining the curated list, or playing favoritism at all, but its also frustrating when after a while of bad communication you want to walk away, but they ping you, or pm you asking for more help.

Gavin

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Marky Jackson
In reply to this post by Gavin Mogan
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Oleg Nenashev
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion. I would also like to move the page and to improve its look&feel. Moving the Commercial Support and Approved Trademark Usage pages is in my backlog for Wiki migration. This pages are not easy to migrate IMO, because jenkins.io grants a wide access for managing these pages (Copy Editors, SIG leaders, GSoC team, etc.). Such access is supposed to be restricted IMO, especially for the trademarks page. Access in Wiki was also restricted at some point.

My plan for these pages is/was to...
  • Create a new public repository within Jenkins Infra for the sensitive content. Write permissions will be restricted to the Jenkins Infra team and to the Jenkins Board
  • Repository will include sensitive content, including Commercial Support, Trademarks, and maybe Governance docs in the future (once under https://jenkins.io/project/).
  • For Commercial Support and Approved Trademarks we will use separate Asciidoc pages for each entry. 
  • jenkins.io builder will pull this resource and include pages into jenkins.io, similar to how it happens with currently generated content
Would appreciate feedback about such process.

P.S: I will make sure to create a JIRA entry for it if someone wants to contribute


On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:22:29 AM UTC+1, Marky Jackson wrote:
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hYvVAqrCEQAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">jenkin...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Tim Jacomb
Is there a problem with using code owners for those files?

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:05, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion. I would also like to move the page and to improve its look&feel. Moving the Commercial Support and Approved Trademark Usage pages is in my backlog for Wiki migration. This pages are not easy to migrate IMO, because jenkins.io grants a wide access for managing these pages (Copy Editors, SIG leaders, GSoC team, etc.). Such access is supposed to be restricted IMO, especially for the trademarks page. Access in Wiki was also restricted at some point.

My plan for these pages is/was to...
  • Create a new public repository within Jenkins Infra for the sensitive content. Write permissions will be restricted to the Jenkins Infra team and to the Jenkins Board
  • Repository will include sensitive content, including Commercial Support, Trademarks, and maybe Governance docs in the future (once under https://jenkins.io/project/).
  • For Commercial Support and Approved Trademarks we will use separate Asciidoc pages for each entry. 
  • jenkins.io builder will pull this resource and include pages into jenkins.io, similar to how it happens with currently generated content
Would appreciate feedback about such process.

P.S: I will make sure to create a JIRA entry for it if someone wants to contribute


On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:22:29 AM UTC+1, Marky Jackson wrote:
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Oleg Nenashev
Code Owners does not prevent merges by other contributors with Write permissions. We could combine CODEOWNERS with required reviews, but it will apply to the entire Jenkins repository. 
I am not sure this is what we want, but happy to discuss it. Setting up permissions on the repo level is easier that wrangling with a new repo and the delivery pipeline patches


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:07 PM Tim Jacomb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a problem with using code owners for those files?

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:05, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion. I would also like to move the page and to improve its look&feel. Moving the Commercial Support and Approved Trademark Usage pages is in my backlog for Wiki migration. This pages are not easy to migrate IMO, because jenkins.io grants a wide access for managing these pages (Copy Editors, SIG leaders, GSoC team, etc.). Such access is supposed to be restricted IMO, especially for the trademarks page. Access in Wiki was also restricted at some point.

My plan for these pages is/was to...
  • Create a new public repository within Jenkins Infra for the sensitive content. Write permissions will be restricted to the Jenkins Infra team and to the Jenkins Board
  • Repository will include sensitive content, including Commercial Support, Trademarks, and maybe Governance docs in the future (once under https://jenkins.io/project/).
  • For Commercial Support and Approved Trademarks we will use separate Asciidoc pages for each entry. 
  • jenkins.io builder will pull this resource and include pages into jenkins.io, similar to how it happens with currently generated content
Would appreciate feedback about such process.

P.S: I will make sure to create a JIRA entry for it if someone wants to contribute


On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:22:29 AM UTC+1, Marky Jackson wrote:
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Tim Jacomb
Why not setup required reviews?
There can be a small group of people who can bypass if necessary but most people will need review

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:12, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Code Owners does not prevent merges by other contributors with Write permissions. We could combine CODEOWNERS with required reviews, but it will apply to the entire Jenkins repository. 
I am not sure this is what we want, but happy to discuss it. Setting up permissions on the repo level is easier that wrangling with a new repo and the delivery pipeline patches


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:07 PM Tim Jacomb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a problem with using code owners for those files?

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:05, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion. I would also like to move the page and to improve its look&feel. Moving the Commercial Support and Approved Trademark Usage pages is in my backlog for Wiki migration. This pages are not easy to migrate IMO, because jenkins.io grants a wide access for managing these pages (Copy Editors, SIG leaders, GSoC team, etc.). Such access is supposed to be restricted IMO, especially for the trademarks page. Access in Wiki was also restricted at some point.

My plan for these pages is/was to...
  • Create a new public repository within Jenkins Infra for the sensitive content. Write permissions will be restricted to the Jenkins Infra team and to the Jenkins Board
  • Repository will include sensitive content, including Commercial Support, Trademarks, and maybe Governance docs in the future (once under https://jenkins.io/project/).
  • For Commercial Support and Approved Trademarks we will use separate Asciidoc pages for each entry. 
  • jenkins.io builder will pull this resource and include pages into jenkins.io, similar to how it happens with currently generated content
Would appreciate feedback about such process.

P.S: I will make sure to create a JIRA entry for it if someone wants to contribute


On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:22:29 AM UTC+1, Marky Jackson wrote:
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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Re: Support List on jenkins.io?

Gavin Mogan
I can build a super quick web app with approval support tied to LDAP/GitHub/Google accounts.

Anyone can submit, few can approve

On Thu., Jan. 23, 2020, 4:55 a.m. Tim Jacomb, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why not setup required reviews?
There can be a small group of people who can bypass if necessary but most people will need review

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:12, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Code Owners does not prevent merges by other contributors with Write permissions. We could combine CODEOWNERS with required reviews, but it will apply to the entire Jenkins repository. 
I am not sure this is what we want, but happy to discuss it. Setting up permissions on the repo level is easier that wrangling with a new repo and the delivery pipeline patches


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:07 PM Tim Jacomb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a problem with using code owners for those files?

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 11:05, Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion. I would also like to move the page and to improve its look&feel. Moving the Commercial Support and Approved Trademark Usage pages is in my backlog for Wiki migration. This pages are not easy to migrate IMO, because jenkins.io grants a wide access for managing these pages (Copy Editors, SIG leaders, GSoC team, etc.). Such access is supposed to be restricted IMO, especially for the trademarks page. Access in Wiki was also restricted at some point.

My plan for these pages is/was to...
  • Create a new public repository within Jenkins Infra for the sensitive content. Write permissions will be restricted to the Jenkins Infra team and to the Jenkins Board
  • Repository will include sensitive content, including Commercial Support, Trademarks, and maybe Governance docs in the future (once under https://jenkins.io/project/).
  • For Commercial Support and Approved Trademarks we will use separate Asciidoc pages for each entry. 
  • jenkins.io builder will pull this resource and include pages into jenkins.io, similar to how it happens with currently generated content
Would appreciate feedback about such process.

P.S: I will make sure to create a JIRA entry for it if someone wants to contribute


On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:22:29 AM UTC+1, Marky Jackson wrote:
I like the idea of waiting for the advocacy meeting but that doesn’t mean we can’t get started on a WIP pr

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 9:21 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

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