Terminology Updates

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Re: Terminology Updates

Mark Waite-2


On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM James Nord <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jenkins server is ambiguous it has as many minus votes as I can put (limited to one)

login to the Jenkins server and run service start Jenkins.....


Wouldn't that be better phrased as "login to Linux and run `systemctl start jenkins`" or "login to Windows and run `sc start Jenkins`"?  In this case, the focus of "login" is the operating system, not Jenkins.
 
login to the Jenkins server and create a new job


Wouldn't that be better phrased as "login to Jenkins and create a new job"?  In this case, the focus of "login" is Jenkins and not the operating system.
 
whatever we choose it can not be confused with the host/is/server/machine that the is process runs in.


I'm not sure of a term that does not risk confusion with the host/machine/environment where the process runs.  We already need to be clear in our phrasing today to assure that readers know whether the action should be applied to the host operating system (your first example) or the Jenkins process (your second example).
 
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Re: Terminology Updates

James Nord-2
you  correctly Pou ted out my examples where rubbish.
but you can not talk about the Jenkins server and know what the other is talking about without saying, you mean Linux or the java process thing it's a recepie for disaster or turning 2 words into 6 every time you want to use it.

today sure we say login to jenkins using my example. but asking say what's the memory of the Jenkins server..

when you want to be OS agnostic (not all Jenkins run in Linux) refering to the server is highly advantageous.  

I just see this as something that would bite us in the future, irrespective of any technical issues (raised by Daniel)

what if we break the Jenkins monolith down into multiple processes, the cloud native Sig is starting up again iirc and who knows where that will take us...

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Re: Terminology Updates

Mark Waite-2


On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM James Nord <[hidden email]> wrote:

but you can not talk about the Jenkins server and know what the other is talking about without saying, you mean Linux or the java process thing it's a recepie for disaster or turning 2 words into 6 every time you want to use it.

today sure we say login to jenkins using my example. but asking say what's the memory of the Jenkins server..

when you want to be OS agnostic (not all Jenkins run in Linux) refering to the server is highly advantageous. 


I see.  So you would reserve the word "server" for a higher level than the Jenkins java process.  That is reasonable, though it means we need a different word or phrase than "server"
 
I just see this as something that would bite us in the future, irrespective of any technical issues (raised by Daniel)


I like Daniel's idea of more precisely describing the scope of the changes related to this renaming and how they would be implemented.  I'll reply there with some ideas for discussion.
 

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Re: Terminology Updates

slide
Yes, the whole point of this thread is for discussion of all aspects, including all the technical issues that we will have. 

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 2:18 PM Mark Waite <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM James Nord <[hidden email]> wrote:

but you can not talk about the Jenkins server and know what the other is talking about without saying, you mean Linux or the java process thing it's a recepie for disaster or turning 2 words into 6 every time you want to use it.

today sure we say login to jenkins using my example. but asking say what's the memory of the Jenkins server..

when you want to be OS agnostic (not all Jenkins run in Linux) refering to the server is highly advantageous. 


I see.  So you would reserve the word "server" for a higher level than the Jenkins java process.  That is reasonable, though it means we need a different word or phrase than "server"
 
I just see this as something that would bite us in the future, irrespective of any technical issues (raised by Daniel)


I like Daniel's idea of more precisely describing the scope of the changes related to this renaming and how they would be implemented.  I'll reply there with some ideas for discussion.
 

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Re: Terminology Updates

Ben Castellucci
I don't really ever weigh in on things but this time I'd like to.

I think its safe to say no one wants anything with a space or special chars, due to obvious technical issues.

In that vein, 'Jenkins Server' could have such technical implications plus it is very broad.

So we're left with one word alternatives, so here's a short list of me just brain storming a little:

    - controller (this is my favorite but I think someone objected a while back)
    - commander
    - coordinator
    - leader (a bit of a stretch)
    - primary (sounds ok to me - 'primary node', 'agent node', etc.)
    - first
    - main

Most of these (with the exception maybe of 'commander' and 'leader') already appear in the vernacular & are well known.

My vote is 'controller' or 'primary'.

Thanks,
Ben

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:47 PM Slide <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, the whole point of this thread is for discussion of all aspects, including all the technical issues that we will have. 

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 2:18 PM Mark Waite <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM James Nord <[hidden email]> wrote:

but you can not talk about the Jenkins server and know what the other is talking about without saying, you mean Linux or the java process thing it's a recepie for disaster or turning 2 words into 6 every time you want to use it.

today sure we say login to jenkins using my example. but asking say what's the memory of the Jenkins server..

when you want to be OS agnostic (not all Jenkins run in Linux) refering to the server is highly advantageous. 


I see.  So you would reserve the word "server" for a higher level than the Jenkins java process.  That is reasonable, though it means we need a different word or phrase than "server"
 
I just see this as something that would bite us in the future, irrespective of any technical issues (raised by Daniel)


I like Daniel's idea of more precisely describing the scope of the changes related to this renaming and how they would be implemented.  I'll reply there with some ideas for discussion.
 

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Re: Terminology Updates

Mark Waite-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Beck
Here's my attempt at more precise details.

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:02 AM Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 12. Jun 2020, at 20:05, Slide <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Jenkins Server makes sense to me as well. I'll add as a topic for the next Governance meeting.

It seems as if this thread so far lacks considerations regarding the implementation of such a decision. This is concerning because a superficially good solution may well turn out to bring challenges when it comes to implementing them.

For example, right now, master is at /computer/(master)/ and its self-label (to build jobs on it) is 'master'. What would those look like with the term 'Jenkins Server'? URLs with spaces in them are annoying due to percent-encoding. While labels support spaces, it's a fairly annoying syntax to type and autocompletion for them doesn't work properly. IOW, this is going to be more difficult if we choose a composite term.

Similarly, it could make sense for us to consider how the term would be translated into some of the more commonly used languages. Some of the proposed terms are probably not easily translated. ('Server' should be fine as it's such a common term in tech. 'Majordomo' OTOH?)

It might even make sense to separate the "UI" part from the "node" part: Jenkins server makes sense for the former. A different term might make more sense for the latter (and it's even clearer with terms like 'controller': the master node controls nothing). 'Primary' could work except it sounds like it's a good idea to build there. 'Local' perhaps?


I like the idea of separating the "UI" part from the "node" part.
 

> Please also make sure and weigh in on AllowList/DenyList and it's other derivatives.


FWIW since I've struggled to think of notable examples in Jenkins outside system properties and basically deprecated features like agent-to-master ('agent-to-jenkins-server'?) security: In-Process Script Approval (Script Security) has whitelists.



P.S.: But perhaps let's throw some consideration about the scope of necessary changes of any term into the mix so we don't end up with a never-ending mess like for 'agent', but are prepared to implement this more quickly.

Assuming a similar scope (fix all the UI, fix the few locations in the code that aren't breaking changes, fix Javadoc, skip breaking code changes and introduce compatibility fallbacks like supporting both 'agent.jar' and 'slave.jar' URLs):

- So far we probably should add the label 'master' to that node (only) when upgrading from an older Jenkins. Otherwise builds may be blocked.
- Show an admin monitor if any other node has the new self-label for the replacement term. This can result in unexpected node assignment decisions.
- …?


Using the word 'valet' instead of 'master' to refer to the node that executes inside the original Jenkins Java process.  Replace it with the term you prefer
  • Redirect requests from /computer/(master)/ to /computer/(valet)/
  • Assign the label 'valet' to the node that executes inside the original Jenkins process
  • Assign the NODE_NAME="valet" env var to that node instead of NODE_NAME="master"
  • Replace 'master' with 'valet' in help-label.html for AbstractProject
  • Change display name of root node from 'master' to 'valet'
  • Change the Jenkins#getSelfLabel() to return the label atom of "valet" instead of "master"
  • Show an admin monitor if any other agent has the label 'valet'
  • Convert tests that reference agent labeled 'master' to use label 'valet'
Things that would not change:
  • The jenkins.security.Roles (internal concept only, not shown to users)
  • Name of the key file in security/master.key (internal concept, not shown to users)
 
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Re: Terminology Updates

Oleg Nenashev
It would be better to handle implementation details should in separate threads. Technical complexity is implied here. Actual cleanup will of deprecated terminology is likely to take years, and we will have plenty of time to deep dive on it. Let's focus on terminology.

I like Daniel's suggestion about using separate terms depending on the case, e.g. Jenkins Web UI, Jenkins agent controller, etc. We already have examples of multi-tenant and multi-setver Jenkins instances, as well as other architectures like Jenkinsfile Runner which is arguably "serverless". Breaking down a single term would be a good investment in future.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Daniel Beck
In reply to this post by Mark Waite-2


> On 14. Jun 2020, at 02:46, Mark Waite <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Using the word 'valet' instead of 'master' to refer to the node that executes inside the original Jenkins Java process.  Replace it with the term you prefer
> • Redirect requests from /computer/(master)/ to /computer/(valet)/

Good idea.

> • Assign the label 'valet' to the node that executes inside the original Jenkins process
> • Assign the NODE_NAME="valet" env var to that node instead of NODE_NAME="master"
> • Replace 'master' with 'valet' in help-label.html for AbstractProject
> • Change display name of root node from 'master' to 'valet'
> • Change the Jenkins#getSelfLabel() to return the label atom of "valet" instead of "master"
> • Convert tests that reference agent labeled 'master' to use label 'valet'

Right, I assumed the basic 'change X to Y' was given and only listed things that needed doing on top of that. Good to have a complete list in advance though.

> Things that would not change:
> • The jenkins.security.Roles (internal concept only, not shown to users)

Interesting. While we could change the string used, the field is what's actually used, and then we're back to how much we want to break things. We may be able to attempt this one, but since everyone is just using the objectionably named *To*Callables anyway that we cannot really change.

> • Name of the key file in security/master.key (internal concept, not shown to users)

Is this the same kind of 'master' we're trying to get rid of? I haven't seen 'master key' having a historical association with slavery.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Zbynek Konecny
In reply to this post by slide
Hi Earl,

for blacklist/whitelist -- IMHO "blocked signatures" sounds more natural than "blocklist of signatures" or "denylist of signatures" -- maybe it's possible to change the wording to avoid these terms altogether, along the lines of https://github.com/rails/rails/pull/33681/files. If not, "safelist" also sounds like a reasonable replacement for "whitelist" (from https://english.stackexchange.com/a/51111).

Cheers,
Zbynek

On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 5:34:58 AM UTC+2, slide wrote:

Hi Everyone,

 

Back in the Jenkins 2.0 days, it was decided (rightfully so) to deprecate the term "slave" as it was used in the Jenkins project. There has been some significant progress made on this effort by many contributors with some remaining effort needing to be done (see the <a href="https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-42816" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fissues.jenkins-ci.org%2Fbrowse%2FJENKINS-42816\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHfyk163UiXb9JlSxTj-kb_WFHj6g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fissues.jenkins-ci.org%2Fbrowse%2FJENKINS-42816\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHfyk163UiXb9JlSxTj-kb_WFHj6g&#39;;return true;">JENKINS-42816 EPIC). The agent terminology cleanup is recognized as a major initiative in the project, and it is listed on the <a href="https://jenkins.io/project/roadmap" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io%2Fproject%2Froadmap\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFin4WlBLaG0FYbtLg7PEh9N2cUhw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjenkins.io%2Fproject%2Froadmap\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFin4WlBLaG0FYbtLg7PEh9N2cUhw&#39;;return true;">Jenkins Public Roadmap Draft. We have some additional terminology that we would like to look at deprecating and replacing within the Jenkins project.

 

The following terminology are items that we would like to replace with possible options. We would like this discussion to be civil, these words have powerful negative meanings for many people and we want to make sure, as a project, that we are using terms which are not negative. Please reply with opinions on the possible replacements that the Advocacy and Outreach SIG came up with, or others if you have additional ideas. 

 

  • Master ->

    • Host

    • Server

    • Control Plane

  • Whitelist/Blacklist ->

    • Allowlist/Denylist

    • Allowlist/Blocklist

 

If there are other terms that you have seen in the Jenkins project that may need to be deprecated and replaced, please contact the Jenkins Governance Board members (<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uDjgGlnKAQAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">jenkins...@googlegroups.com) with your concerns.

 

Regards,

 

Alex Earl

Jenkins Governance Board Member



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Re: Terminology Updates

Justin Harringa
Personally I thank the community for having already starting down this path.

I tend to like leader or controller from https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1 but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a bit of a conflict of terminology there.

Take care all.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Antonio Manuel Muñiz Martín-2
In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for artisans).
I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.

El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Personally I thank the community for having already starting down this path.

I tend to like leader or controller from https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1 but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a bit of a conflict of terminology there.

Take care all.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Angélique Jard
My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.

As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.

As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:
In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for artisans).
I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.

El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Personally I thank the community for having already starting down this path.

I tend to like leader or controller from https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1 but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a bit of a conflict of terminology there.

Take care all.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Matt Sicker
A master key is a particular type of universal key used for unlocking
multiple different locks. In this case, the master key in Jenkins is
used to unlock all the other encrypted data. It sort of makes sense.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:04 AM Angélique Jard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.
>
> As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.
>
> As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:
>>
>> In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for artisans).
>> I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.
>>
>> El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>>>
>>> Personally I thank the community for having already starting down this path.
>>>
>>> I tend to like leader or controller from https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1 but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a bit of a conflict of terminology there.
>>>
>>> Take care all.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> * amunizmartin.com
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Re: Terminology Updates

Markus Winter
I think currently we use the term master for 2 different things.
First we have Jenkins orchestrating the builds, here the term controller
probably fits best but also server seems to fit for me
Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
could use the term "main"  as the default label.

On 15.06.2020 17:18, Matt Sicker wrote:

> A master key is a particular type of universal key used for unlocking
> multiple different locks. In this case, the master key in Jenkins is
> used to unlock all the other encrypted data. It sort of makes sense.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:04 AM Angélique Jard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.
>>
>> As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.
>>
>> As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
>> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:
>>> In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for artisans).
>>> I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.
>>>
>>> El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>>>> Personally I thank the community for having already starting down this path.
>>>>
>>>> I tend to like leader or controller from https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1 but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a bit of a conflict of terminology there.
>>>>
>>>> Take care all.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jenkins Developers" group.
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> * Antonio Manuel Muñiz
>>> * amunizmartin.com
>>> * [hidden email]
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>
>

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Re: Terminology Updates

Daniel Beck
In reply to this post by slide

> On 15. Jun 2020, at 16:00, Antonio Muñiz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no
> "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations.

If Jenkins (and before it, Hudson) had always used Master/Agent terminology, that would apply. But it didn't. I think it makes sense for us to do more than the bare minimum here.

It's bad enough that the internals are riddled with master/slave references probably indefinitely or we're going to break all the plugins, so it's not like there's a clean cut from obsolete terminology either.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Daniel Beck
In reply to this post by Markus Winter


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Adrien Lecharpentier
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Justin Harringa
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Julie Ng
In reply to this post by slide
+1 to everyone who suggested separating out UI and avoiding master altogether, i.e. log into Jenkins Web UI

As for the deployable itself, my personal favorites are

- "orchestrator" as a safe choice
- "conductor" suggestion from Angélique. Maybe we can establish a new vocab for Jenkins/CI/CD, so Conductor is equated with Jenkins just as "controller" is equated with Kubernetes.

Cheers
Julie

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Re: Terminology Updates

Tracy Miranda
In reply to this post by Justin Harringa
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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