Terminology Updates

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Re: Terminology Updates

Tammy Fox
+1 for allowlist/denylist to be consistent with what other communities are using.

I have 3 suggestions to replace Master:

1. Director
2. Expeditor
3. Coordinator

Thoughts? I was thinking about what a Master does, and it seems similar to the Expeditor in a restaurant kitchen. The Master getting build requests and sending it to the individual build agents is similar to an Expeditor sending different items to the different food stations in a restaurant.

Cheers,
Tammy

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:05 PM Tracy Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Antoine Musso-2
In reply to this post by Julie Ng
Le 16/06/2020 à 09:42, Julie Ng a écrit :
> +1 to everyone who suggested separating out UI and avoiding master
> altogether, i.e. log into Jenkins Web UI
>
> As for the deployable itself, my personal favorites are
>
> - "orchestrator" as a safe choice
> - "conductor" suggestion from Angélique. Maybe we can establish a new
> vocab for Jenkins/CI/CD, so Conductor is equated with Jenkins just as
> "controller" is equated with Kubernetes.

Hello,

"orchestrator" sounds to me like a container management system such as
Kubernetes and I find it a bit misleading as to what Jenkins is
achieving. As a non native english speaker, I also find the term
difficult to read or write.

I really like the musical analogy Angélique proposed with "conductor", I
guess "director" could be a straight forward term as well and might be
even more understandable for non musical/non native english speakers. ;)

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Re: Terminology Updates

Tammy Fox
In reply to this post by Tracy Miranda
+1 for allowlist/denylist to be consistent with what other communities are using.

I have 3 suggestions to replace Master:

1. Director
2. Expeditor
3. Coordinator

Thoughts? I was thinking about what a Master does, and it seems similar to the Expeditor in a restaurant kitchen. The Master getting build requests and sending it to the individual build agents is similar to an Expeditor sending different items to the different food stations in a restaurant.

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 4:05:58 PM UTC-4 Tracy Miranda wrote:
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Oleg Nenashev
I started a Google Doc to capture proposals and votes
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-8myIWOZZktR0HNtbFIiNA0RfDCvkfKKuNI0C3wcvbo/edit?usp=sharing


On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 12:30:47 AM UTC+2, Tammy Fox wrote:
+1 for allowlist/denylist to be consistent with what other communities are using.

I have 3 suggestions to replace Master:

1. Director
2. Expeditor
3. Coordinator

Thoughts? I was thinking about what a Master does, and it seems similar to the Expeditor in a restaurant kitchen. The Master getting build requests and sending it to the individual build agents is similar to an Expeditor sending different items to the different food stations in a restaurant.

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 4:05:58 PM UTC-4 Tracy Miranda wrote:
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes
<a href="https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Frails%2Frails%2Fissues%2F33677\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFgak3UpN1IqgoOEH6oHSTQhofS5A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Frails%2Frails%2Fissues%2F33677\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFgak3UpN1IqgoOEH6oHSTQhofS5A&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677  
<a href="https://github.com/kubernetes/website/pull/21591" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkubernetes%2Fwebsite%2Fpull%2F21591\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGbwRtwb7nl97yZW1fAlqW_eAL0sA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkubernetes%2Fwebsite%2Fpull%2F21591\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGbwRtwb7nl97yZW1fAlqW_eAL0sA&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/kubernetes/website/pull/21591  

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Tony Noble
Another vote for allowlist/denylist (or blocklist).

Controller/Agent is a sensible replacement for the master/slave paradigm and has the benefit of being self-describing.  I don't see that there should be any confusion between Jenkins controller and Kubernetes controller any more than there would be with any other type of controller.  "Server" should apply to the host, IMO.

Tony

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 3:30 PM Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
I started a Google Doc to capture proposals and votes


On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 12:30:47 AM UTC+2, Tammy Fox wrote:
+1 for allowlist/denylist to be consistent with what other communities are using.

I have 3 suggestions to replace Master:

1. Director
2. Expeditor
3. Coordinator

Thoughts? I was thinking about what a Master does, and it seems similar to the Expeditor in a restaurant kitchen. The Master getting build requests and sending it to the individual build agents is similar to an Expeditor sending different items to the different food stations in a restaurant.

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 4:05:58 PM UTC-4 Tracy Miranda wrote:
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

slide
Hi All,

We had a discussion about this in the Governance Meeting last week and came to the following decisions to move forward.

We have had several recommendations/ideas for replacing the term "master" with another term. Ideas such as host, server, controller and others. We could not come to a consensus in the Governance Meeting, so we propose that we set a deadline for suggestions from this thread, then the Governance Board will select 10 of the suggestions for a Condorcet Internet Voting Service vote (Mark Waite will be the technical lead on setting this up). The poll will be used as input for the Governance Board to make the final decision. I propose that we keep suggestions going in this thread until July 1st after which the Governance Board can select the 10 suggestions that will go into the vote.

We also realize that one term doesn't always meet the needs of the scope of the usage of the term. We are starting a discussion to update the glossary (https://www.jenkins.io/doc/book/glossary/) with recommended terms for different use cases (e.g., Jenkins Web Interface, Jenkins Server Application).

The discussion around "blacklist/whitelist" resulted in consensus that we definitely need to deprecate and replace these terms. The context in which these terms appear can require different replacements than just one specific set. Simple replacements for "blacklist/whitelist" would be "denylist/allowlist", but since context matters, we are not requiring one specific set of terms be used for replacement, just that "blacklist/whitelist" be replaced with acceptable terms. If you have questions about the acceptability of replacement terms, please ask in the developer mailing list.

Once we decide on a term replacement for "master" we would like to focus on user facing places first like docs, web interface, etc., but the goal is to replace everything over time. The same priorities exist for "blacklist/whitelist".

If you have not made suggestions and would like to, please reply to this email and I will collect the suggestions in the Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-8myIWOZZktR0HNtbFIiNA0RfDCvkfKKuNI0C3wcvbo/edit?ts=5eea6706#) that Oleg created.

Thanks!

Alex
Jenkins Governance Board Member

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 2:18 AM Tony Noble <[hidden email]> wrote:
Another vote for allowlist/denylist (or blocklist).

Controller/Agent is a sensible replacement for the master/slave paradigm and has the benefit of being self-describing.  I don't see that there should be any confusion between Jenkins controller and Kubernetes controller any more than there would be with any other type of controller.  "Server" should apply to the host, IMO.

Tony

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 3:30 PM Oleg Nenashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
I started a Google Doc to capture proposals and votes


On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 12:30:47 AM UTC+2, Tammy Fox wrote:
+1 for allowlist/denylist to be consistent with what other communities are using.

I have 3 suggestions to replace Master:

1. Director
2. Expeditor
3. Coordinator

Thoughts? I was thinking about what a Master does, and it seems similar to the Expeditor in a restaurant kitchen. The Master getting build requests and sending it to the individual build agents is similar to an Expeditor sending different items to the different food stations in a restaurant.

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 4:05:58 PM UTC-4 Tracy Miranda wrote:
Good discussion on 'master' replacement - listening and learning

On the other terminology I vote allowlist/denylist.  
This is also consistent with other projects communities e.g. Rails/Kubernetes

Tracy


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:30 PM Justin Harringa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Conductor is a cool suggestion!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:49 PM Adrien Lecharpentier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to say that the music parallel from Angelique seems nice and has a lot of sense in my opinion. 
And the Jenkins butler is not that far from a music orchestrator as well.

Le lun. 15 juin 2020 à 22:47, Daniel Beck <[hidden email]> a écrit :


> On 15. Jun 2020, at 22:39, Markus Winter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Second the server is also just plain agent (more or less). For this we
> could use the term "main"  as the default label.

That's what I proposed earlier in the thread as well.

'main' seems reasonable, but still has the connotation that it's actually a good idea to use this node, when it rarely is.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Thomas de Grenier de Latour
In reply to this post by Angélique Jard
As a native French speaker too, I fear that "conductor" would be
difficult to translate in French. With its "musical director" meaning,
it would be "chef d'orchestre", which is so explicit that it leaves
little room for a figurative sense (and it's also really long). The word
"conducteur" exists in French, but not with this meaning (it's either an
electrical wire, or a car driver; none of which being a good analogy for
the work Jenkins does).

To stay in the same lexical field, I would rather go with "maestro" (a
skilled / well-known conductor), because this word would be understood
as-is at least by Italian (obviously), English, French, and Spanish
speakers (maybe German speakers too, maybe others). Plus, for people
used to the historical Jenkins terminology, it gives an etymological
hint that it is indeed the new word for "master", and not a
new/different concept.

Now, that being said, you can't go wrong with "controller" I think, so
it would have my preference too. I don't think the potential confusion
with k8s controllers is an issue (when writing about Jenkins deployment
on K8S, use "K8S controller" / "Jenkins controller" to avoid any
ambiguity). The word is so widely used in IT that we can assume most
languages already have a well established translation for it. In French,
it's "contrôleur" (fun fact: the most common meaning for "contrôleur",
outside of the IT field, is "bus/train conductor").

Anyway, I guess my point here is that picking the new terminology should
be done with i18n in mind. Maybe double-check with active i18n
contributors for the most spoken languages that they have no issue with
the candidate words, or something like that.

Thomas.

Le 15/06/2020 à 17:03, Angélique Jard a écrit :

> My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to
> the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link
> tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.
>
> As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with
> "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all
> male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better
> to tell it now.
>
> As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is
> how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents,
> Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:
>
>     In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no
>     "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use
>     is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for
>     artisans).
>     I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non
>     english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.
>
>     El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa
>     (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>
>         Personally I thank the community for having already starting
>         down this path.
>
>         I tend to like leader or controller from
>         https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1
>         but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see
>         with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a
>         bit of a conflict of terminology there.
>
>         Take care all.
>
>         --
>         You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>         Google Groups "Jenkins Developers" group.
>         To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>         it, send an email to [hidden email].
>
>         To view this discussion on the web visit
>         https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/3411fed5-7e21-454a-b285-f719f07c1b3ao%40googlegroups.com.
>
>
>
>     --
>     * Antonio Manuel Muñiz
>     * amunizmartin.com <http://amunizmartin.com>
>     * [hidden email]
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group.
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> an email to [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/56742697-234e-4d29-b613-fcc13d072ed7n%40googlegroups.com 
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/56742697-234e-4d29-b613-fcc13d072ed7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Michael Dunlap
In reply to this post by slide
First, thank you for consdering changes in language. It's coming at a good time.

To replace master, what about "main"? If not, "orchestrator" or "director"?

I'd like to pile on with the other folks that AllowList and DenyList are descriptive and appropriate. I don't like "BlockList" because it isn't as related to Allow as Deny is. There's also plenty of precedent in other projects - see the Apache web server's routine use of Allow and Deny.

Blocklist is also too similar to Blacklist both in writing and audibly.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 1:51:42 PM UTC-4, slide wrote:

Once we decide on a term replacement for "master" we would like to focus on user facing places first like docs, web interface, etc., but the goal is to replace everything over time. The same priorities exist for "blacklist/whitelist".


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Re: Terminology Updates

Jeff Thompson
In reply to this post by Thomas de Grenier de Latour

"maestro" is problematic in our context because it's too similar to the word we're trying to replace. Because of our usage history, that's a bigger issue than it might be in other contexts. In English, though they may have nuanced common usages, they're both basically the same word. They just got to modern English via different paths. They both derive from the same Latin root. We would be better to select something noticeably different.

We should definitely keep i18n in mind in choosing a name.

Jeff

On 6/24/20 4:49 PM, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
As a native French speaker too, I fear that "conductor" would be difficult to translate in French. With its "musical director" meaning, it would be "chef d'orchestre", which is so explicit that it leaves little room for a figurative sense (and it's also really long). The word "conducteur" exists in French, but not with this meaning (it's either an electrical wire, or a car driver; none of which being a good analogy for the work Jenkins does).

To stay in the same lexical field, I would rather go with "maestro" (a skilled / well-known conductor), because this word would be understood as-is at least by Italian (obviously), English, French, and Spanish speakers (maybe German speakers too, maybe others). Plus, for people used to the historical Jenkins terminology, it gives an etymological hint that it is indeed the new word for "master", and not a new/different concept.

Now, that being said, you can't go wrong with "controller" I think, so it would have my preference too. I don't think the potential confusion with k8s controllers is an issue (when writing about Jenkins deployment on K8S, use "K8S controller" / "Jenkins controller" to avoid any ambiguity). The word is so widely used in IT that we can assume most languages already have a well established translation for it. In French, it's "contrôleur" (fun fact: the most common meaning for "contrôleur", outside of the IT field, is "bus/train conductor").

Anyway, I guess my point here is that picking the new terminology should be done with i18n in mind. Maybe double-check with active i18n contributors for the most spoken languages that they have no issue with the candidate words, or something like that.

Thomas.

Le 15/06/2020 à 17:03, Angélique Jard a écrit :
My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.

As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.

As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:

    In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no
    "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use
    is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for
    artisans).
    I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non
    english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.

    El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa
    ([hidden email]) escribió:

        Personally I thank the community for having already starting
        down this path.

        I tend to like leader or controller from
        https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1
        but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see
        with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a
        bit of a conflict of terminology there.

        Take care all.

        --         You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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    --     * Antonio Manuel Muñiz
    * amunizmartin.com <http://amunizmartin.com>
    * [hidden email]

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Re: Terminology Updates

Ian W

There is heightened sensitivity to the naming of things, the meaning behind them and the meaning read into them. I applaud the Jenkins community work to address these matters. I first encountered the master / slave terminology when I first tried to configure an IDE drive on a IBM PC clone. Then the context was "Master Controller" and "Slave Controller". Perhaps my youthful naiveté did not associate the full qualified terms  with racial imagery to which the lone words are ascribed. When I first saw the plain "Master / Slave" usage in Jenkins, I definitely made that negative association. If there exists more neutral terminology, I am all for it.

 

The same goes for BlackList / WhiteList. Absolutely support the AllowList / DenyList pairing in its place.

 

The transition to node/agent works well, and it is the executors that do the work.

So, what for "the master" ? Some disliked Orchestrator, Controller, Host, Server, all for legitimate reasons.

 

I see "the master" as having two contexts. There is the Administrative context (configuration, plugins etc.), that determine focus, capability, delegation. Then there's the context of those tasks that are necessary to execute "on the master".

 

An elegant parallel for the first would be "Executive". That's our Org's (or Jenkins') " Leadership" capability. That's how it works in my Org, with an Executive (at HQ), multiple satellite offices (Nodes/Agents) and then the workers (executors).

 

What about the tasks run on master? It's still executors doing the work, but its sounds like the job for a "Concierge" to coordinate and satisfy the needs of the clients and delegate as necessary. Our Org has a "Concierge" that functions similar to a Concierge at a hotel that most people would be familiar with, but in an office setting

 

My recommendation: refer to the "Host/Server" context as the "Executive",  replace the "master" usage context with "Concierge".


The terms and roles are well defined, should translate reasonably well or are understood as-is, have neutral connotations and are not used in other tools in the CI space that I am aware of.

 

Ian



On Thursday, 25 June 2020 15:36:05 UTC-7, Jeff Thompson wrote:

"maestro" is problematic in our context because it's too similar to the word we're trying to replace. Because of our usage history, that's a bigger issue than it might be in other contexts. In English, though they may have nuanced common usages, they're both basically the same word. They just got to modern English via different paths. They both derive from the same Latin root. We would be better to select something noticeably different.

We should definitely keep i18n in mind in choosing a name.

Jeff

On 6/24/20 4:49 PM, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
As a native French speaker too, I fear that "conductor" would be difficult to translate in French. With its "musical director" meaning, it would be "chef d'orchestre", which is so explicit that it leaves little room for a figurative sense (and it's also really long). The word "conducteur" exists in French, but not with this meaning (it's either an electrical wire, or a car driver; none of which being a good analogy for the work Jenkins does).

To stay in the same lexical field, I would rather go with "maestro" (a skilled / well-known conductor), because this word would be understood as-is at least by Italian (obviously), English, French, and Spanish speakers (maybe German speakers too, maybe others). Plus, for people used to the historical Jenkins terminology, it gives an etymological hint that it is indeed the new word for "master", and not a new/different concept.

Now, that being said, you can't go wrong with "controller" I think, so it would have my preference too. I don't think the potential confusion with k8s controllers is an issue (when writing about Jenkins deployment on K8S, use "K8S controller" / "Jenkins controller" to avoid any ambiguity). The word is so widely used in IT that we can assume most languages already have a well established translation for it. In French, it's "contrôleur" (fun fact: the most common meaning for "contrôleur", outside of the IT field, is "bus/train conductor").

Anyway, I guess my point here is that picking the new terminology should be done with i18n in mind. Maybe double-check with active i18n contributors for the most spoken languages that they have no issue with the candidate words, or something like that.

Thomas.

Le 15/06/2020 à 17:03, Angélique Jard a écrit :
My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.

As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.

As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:

    In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no
    "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use
    is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for
    artisans).
    I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non
    english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.

    El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa
    (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

        Personally I thank the community for having already starting
        down this path.

        I tend to like leader or controller from
        <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-knodel-terminology-00.html%23rfc.section.1.1.1\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGr66X-Ij4e23o2EDUpW0-s1e-t3Q&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-knodel-terminology-00.html%23rfc.section.1.1.1\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGr66X-Ij4e23o2EDUpW0-s1e-t3Q&#39;;return true;">https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1
        but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see
        with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a
        bit of a conflict of terminology there.

        Take care all.

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Re: Terminology Updates

slide
Just a reminder, this is the last day that we will be accepting suggestions. If you have an opinion on terms, please comment.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 8:25 AM Ian W <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is heightened sensitivity to the naming of things, the meaning behind them and the meaning read into them. I applaud the Jenkins community work to address these matters. I first encountered the master / slave terminology when I first tried to configure an IDE drive on a IBM PC clone. Then the context was "Master Controller" and "Slave Controller". Perhaps my youthful naiveté did not associate the full qualified terms  with racial imagery to which the lone words are ascribed. When I first saw the plain "Master / Slave" usage in Jenkins, I definitely made that negative association. If there exists more neutral terminology, I am all for it.

 

The same goes for BlackList / WhiteList. Absolutely support the AllowList / DenyList pairing in its place.

 

The transition to node/agent works well, and it is the executors that do the work.

So, what for "the master" ? Some disliked Orchestrator, Controller, Host, Server, all for legitimate reasons.

 

I see "the master" as having two contexts. There is the Administrative context (configuration, plugins etc.), that determine focus, capability, delegation. Then there's the context of those tasks that are necessary to execute "on the master".

 

An elegant parallel for the first would be "Executive". That's our Org's (or Jenkins') " Leadership" capability. That's how it works in my Org, with an Executive (at HQ), multiple satellite offices (Nodes/Agents) and then the workers (executors).

 

What about the tasks run on master? It's still executors doing the work, but its sounds like the job for a "Concierge" to coordinate and satisfy the needs of the clients and delegate as necessary. Our Org has a "Concierge" that functions similar to a Concierge at a hotel that most people would be familiar with, but in an office setting

 

My recommendation: refer to the "Host/Server" context as the "Executive",  replace the "master" usage context with "Concierge".


The terms and roles are well defined, should translate reasonably well or are understood as-is, have neutral connotations and are not used in other tools in the CI space that I am aware of.

 

Ian



On Thursday, 25 June 2020 15:36:05 UTC-7, Jeff Thompson wrote:

"maestro" is problematic in our context because it's too similar to the word we're trying to replace. Because of our usage history, that's a bigger issue than it might be in other contexts. In English, though they may have nuanced common usages, they're both basically the same word. They just got to modern English via different paths. They both derive from the same Latin root. We would be better to select something noticeably different.

We should definitely keep i18n in mind in choosing a name.

Jeff

On 6/24/20 4:49 PM, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
As a native French speaker too, I fear that "conductor" would be difficult to translate in French. With its "musical director" meaning, it would be "chef d'orchestre", which is so explicit that it leaves little room for a figurative sense (and it's also really long). The word "conducteur" exists in French, but not with this meaning (it's either an electrical wire, or a car driver; none of which being a good analogy for the work Jenkins does).

To stay in the same lexical field, I would rather go with "maestro" (a skilled / well-known conductor), because this word would be understood as-is at least by Italian (obviously), English, French, and Spanish speakers (maybe German speakers too, maybe others). Plus, for people used to the historical Jenkins terminology, it gives an etymological hint that it is indeed the new word for "master", and not a new/different concept.

Now, that being said, you can't go wrong with "controller" I think, so it would have my preference too. I don't think the potential confusion with k8s controllers is an issue (when writing about Jenkins deployment on K8S, use "K8S controller" / "Jenkins controller" to avoid any ambiguity). The word is so widely used in IT that we can assume most languages already have a well established translation for it. In French, it's "contrôleur" (fun fact: the most common meaning for "contrôleur", outside of the IT field, is "bus/train conductor").

Anyway, I guess my point here is that picking the new terminology should be done with i18n in mind. Maybe double-check with active i18n contributors for the most spoken languages that they have no issue with the candidate words, or something like that.

Thomas.

Le 15/06/2020 à 17:03, Angélique Jard a écrit :
My preference goes to "controller", "server" make me think somehow to the hardware physical machine. "Coordinator" is fine also (in the link tools.ietf in previous post) but a bit hard to pronounce.

As a non english native speaker (but french), I have some issue with "valet" and "majordomo" which have fix gender in french and are all male. I know that it's not like that in english but I think it's better to tell it now.

As a music player I also like "conductor" (as musical director) this is how I see my Jenkins instance when I use it, that orchestrate agents, Jenkinsfile could be the music sheet :) ....
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:00:27 PM UTC+2 Antonio Muñiz wrote:

    In spanish the term "Master" ("Maestro"), when used in isolation (no
    "slave" in the context), has no negative connotations. Its main use
    is to describe someone very skilled in some matter (often used for
    artisans).
    I might be suffering of language bias, just wanted to give some "non
    english native speaker" perspective to the conversation.

    El lun., 15 jun. 2020 a las 7:56, Justin Harringa
    (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

        Personally I thank the community for having already starting
        down this path.

        I tend to like leader or controller from
        https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1.1
        but I could also see server working. The difficulty I would see
        with primary/active is that folks who run Jenkins would have a
        bit of a conflict of terminology there.

        Take care all.

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    --     * Antonio Manuel Muñiz
    * amunizmartin.com <http://amunizmartin.com>
    * [hidden email]

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Re: Terminology Updates

James Nord-2
how about monolith 🤔 for the 'master'

it may be modular in terms of plugins and architecture but it's not micro services.
whilst some parts (fingerprint storage, artifact storage) are pluggable we still have the one big thing.

other equally bizarre / useful suggestions include:

* comptroller
* orchestrator (may have already been suggested apologies if it has)
* sneer (it's the collective noun for butlers) it would be good if used for the master node to disuade stop people using it
* trustee
* 'legacy_unsafe' (for the master node/executor label)
* "M" (as in James bond, head of all the agents)
* case officer (handles agents)
* director (tells the agents what to do)
* "C" the head of MI6 (not "M" as the bond movie make you believe)


/James

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Re: Terminology Updates

Martin Schmude
My proposals for "master":

  • central
  • main
Besides this I'm find with "Jenkins server" or simply "server".

James Nord schrieb am Dienstag, 30. Juni 2020 um 22:06:29 UTC+2:
how about monolith 🤔 for the 'master'

it may be modular in terms of plugins and architecture but it's not micro services.
whilst some parts (fingerprint storage, artifact storage) are pluggable we still have the one big thing.

other equally bizarre / useful suggestions include:

* comptroller
* orchestrator (may have already been suggested apologies if it has)
* sneer (it's the collective noun for butlers) it would be good if used for the master node to disuade stop people using it
* trustee
* 'legacy_unsafe' (for the master node/executor label)
* "M" (as in James bond, head of all the agents)
* case officer (handles agents)
* director (tells the agents what to do)
* "C" the head of MI6 (not "M" as the bond movie make you believe)


/James

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Re: Terminology Updates

Robert Sandell-2
Good suggestions overall so far, so I can't really contribute to more suggestions.

Just that Blocklist reminds me too much of Blockchain, so I want to add my veto to that term :)

/B

Den fre 10 juli 2020 kl 20:31 skrev 'Martin Schmude' via Jenkins Developers <[hidden email]>:
My proposals for "master":

  • central
  • main
Besides this I'm find with "Jenkins server" or simply "server".

James Nord schrieb am Dienstag, 30. Juni 2020 um 22:06:29 UTC+2:
how about monolith 🤔 for the 'master'

it may be modular in terms of plugins and architecture but it's not micro services.
whilst some parts (fingerprint storage, artifact storage) are pluggable we still have the one big thing.

other equally bizarre / useful suggestions include:

* comptroller
* orchestrator (may have already been suggested apologies if it has)
* sneer (it's the collective noun for butlers) it would be good if used for the master node to disuade stop people using it
* trustee
* 'legacy_unsafe' (for the master node/executor label)
* "M" (as in James bond, head of all the agents)
* case officer (handles agents)
* director (tells the agents what to do)
* "C" the head of MI6 (not "M" as the bond movie make you believe)


/James

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Senior Software Engineer
CloudBees, Inc.

Twitter: robert_sandell

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Re: Terminology Updates

Runxia Ye
From the shortlisted options selected by the governance board, I see words that in many languages have both a male and a female variant. The "default" version implicitly implies the the "male" variant. I know we are already taking a lot of different aspects into account, so I want to bring to attention this implicit association/unconscious bias that we may be having when choosing some of these words.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Jeff Thompson
On 7/16/20 7:52 AM, Runxia Ye wrote:
From the shortlisted options selected by the governance board, I see words that in many languages have both a male and a female variant. The "default" version implicitly implies the the "male" variant. I know we are already taking a lot of different aspects into account, so I want to bring to attention this implicit association/unconscious bias that we may be having when choosing some of these words.

That's a good point. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to deal with this issue? I know a little bit of Spanish and am familiar with gendered nouns there. I don't have any idea how people are addressing bias in these languages.

Jeff

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Re: Terminology Updates

Runxia Ye
Unfortunately I don't know how others are dealing with this issue.  But I would cast my vote for one where I think the word is pretty gender neutral in all languages I know. 


On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 7:07:00 PM UTC+2 [hidden email] wrote:
On 7/16/20 7:52 AM, Runxia Ye wrote:
From the shortlisted options selected by the governance board, I see words that in many languages have both a male and a female variant. The "default" version implicitly implies the the "male" variant. I know we are already taking a lot of different aspects into account, so I want to bring to attention this implicit association/unconscious bias that we may be having when choosing some of these words.

That's a good point. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to deal with this issue? I know a little bit of Spanish and am familiar with gendered nouns there. I don't have any idea how people are addressing bias in these languages.

Jeff

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Re: Terminology Updates

Mark Waite-2

The Jenkins terminology poll for the “master” term replacement is open at https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/vote.pl?id=E_1bd92a17371a1ca5&akey=f82b79a50f54ad87 . We would appreciate your votes! If you are interested to participate, please submit your choice by July 29, 14:00 PM UTC.

Thanks,
Mark Waite

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 1:20:42 AM UTC-6 [hidden email] wrote:
Unfortunately I don't know how others are dealing with this issue.  But I would cast my vote for one where I think the word is pretty gender neutral in all languages I know. 


On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 7:07:00 PM UTC+2 [hidden email] wrote:
On 7/16/20 7:52 AM, Runxia Ye wrote:
From the shortlisted options selected by the governance board, I see words that in many languages have both a male and a female variant. The "default" version implicitly implies the the "male" variant. I know we are already taking a lot of different aspects into account, so I want to bring to attention this implicit association/unconscious bias that we may be having when choosing some of these words.

That's a good point. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to deal with this issue? I know a little bit of Spanish and am familiar with gendered nouns there. I don't have any idea how people are addressing bias in these languages.

Jeff

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Re: Terminology Updates

Steve Carter
Hi all,

I showed up late to the party, so I'll accept a snub gracefully, but I was intrigued by the problem of replacing the term "master" and have one further term I would like to put in the poll if at all possible.

Dispatcher.

This would most correctly apply to the function of taking jobs off the queue and handing them to nodes. What we today know as master would therefore consist of dispatcher and zero-or-one agents.

What I think distinguishes this suggestion is that it connotes a service provided to agents in collaboration rather than a hierarchical power relationship.

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Re: Terminology Updates

Mark Waite-2
Unfortunately, new terms can't be included in the the votiing.  The voting is already in progress at  https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/vote.pl?id=E_1bd92a17371a1ca5&akey=f82b79a50f54ad87 .  The governance board is using the voting as input for the final decision on the term to be used.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:15 AM Steve Carter <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I showed up late to the party, so I'll accept a snub gracefully, but I was intrigued by the problem of replacing the term "master" and have one further term I would like to put in the poll if at all possible.

Dispatcher.

This would most correctly apply to the function of taking jobs off the queue and handing them to nodes. What we today know as master would therefore consist of dispatcher and zero-or-one agents.

What I think distinguishes this suggestion is that it connotes a service provided to agents in collaboration rather than a hierarchical power relationship.

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